128: Who Killed Tupac and Biggie? The Murders That Changed Hip-Hop Forever

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In the 1970s in Bronx, New York, hip-hop was born. That's right, that's the birthplace of hip-hop. It was built on four main elements: MC, DJing, Breakdancing, and Graffiti art. And it gave artists a way to tell stories about life, culture, and most importantly, social issues that they were struggling with. And what some considered a fad, myself included, a blow through the night has become one of the world's most influential music genres. If you don't believe me, that's fine. But look at our fashion, our language, our sports, entertainment. It's deeply wrote it with hip-hop.

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I'm Darlene and I'm Melody. This is Hard Times and True Crimes.

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So uh the story is not gonna be a surprise to you because I know you've heard it.

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Okay. Is it the one I've been wanting you to do for a long time?

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Okay. I actually messaged your brother this week. Really? I did. I said, don't tell Darlene. But because of your music background and this ministry you're doing for these young boys now, I just wanted to see if you had anything you could, you know, input, share any thoughts, you know, about this episode I'm doing. Oh my goodness. Yeah, and he did have some thoughts. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. So, does that give you any clue about what this episode might be about? Literally none. Okay. I'm gonna give you one more hint. Okay. So while I was researching this episode, I thought, oh, I've got to show Darlene my album. So I want to show you my album. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Oh my gosh. Okay, wait a second.

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You still might not know the episode, and that's fine because that's not you.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Okay. But I I know the music.

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This is my Dougie Fresh album. Yes. The story I'm actually doing is about Tupac and Biggie. Oh my goodness. Okay, that's awesome. The connection here is because when Biggie first came out with Hypnotize, yes, I remember listening to that and thinking, oh, that refrain is in my Dougie Fresh song. You know, he there's he uses a part of that Dougie Fresh.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

That is so cool. Of course, I know Tupac and Biggie, but I don't know a ton about what actually happened because there's so many conspiracy theories. Oh, so many conspiracy theories.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Anybody probably over the age of 30 has heard about this. And this is a great choice, though. And at the end, there's a couple of little other little twists I'm gonna throw out there. Okay. So hopefully you won't know those. I'm just gonna start at the beginning. Yes, please do. Tupac Shakur was born June 16th, 1971. Okay, that was something I didn't know because that's the same year I was born. I didn't realize he was my age. He was born in Harlem, New York. His parents were Fanny Shakur and Billy Garland. But his given name at the at that time was not Tupac. Did you know this? No.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

It was his dad in his life.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

No, but I will get into there. That actually is a little bit of a complex issue, and I'm getting ready to tell you a little bit more about that, but he was not.

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Okay.

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So he was actually named Lasseine Parish Crooks. He was not named Tupac to begin with. Okay. Later, when he was about a year old, is when his mother changed his name to Tupac Shakur after this ancient Incan ruler named Tupac Amaru II. He was like this guy who revolted against the Spanish rule in the 1700s.

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Okay.

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His mother later said, quote, I wanted him to have the name of a revolutionary indigenous people in the world. I wanted him to know he was part of a world culture and not just a neighborhood. Okay. His mother, Afini, she actually had changed her name as well. She had been born Alice Faye Williams in Lumberton, North Carolina. Really? Yes. Her family moved to the South Bronx in New York when she was just 11. What a change. For real. Can you imagine? No. And when Alice got older, she became involved with the Black Panther Party when they opened up an office in Harlem in the late 60s. It was 1968. I did know that. And that's where she met a Sunni Muslim named Lumumba Shakur.

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Okay.

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They married and she changed her name to Afini Shakur at that point. In April of 1969, Afini was arrested with 20 other Black Panther members, and they were charged with several counts of conspiracy and domestic terrorism. This was due to their terror campaign campaign against the city of New York, including attacking police stations, murdering police officers, and bombing public buildings. They were known as the Panther 21. She was tried in New York, and in May of 1971, she was acquitted of over 150 charges. Wow. So it was that was serious. That was serious. She spent almost two years confined during that point. And it was rumored that she struck up a relationship with a fellow inmate named Carol Crooks while she was there. And some people say it was, you know, an intimate relationship, not just a friendship. And Tupac's original last name, Crooks, was after that that woman. Oh, okay. His mother said she did that because she did not want him to be targeted for her affiliation with the Black Panthers. So it was just after a month after she was acquitted that Tupac was born.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Was she impregnated while she was still in jail? That's a good question.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

I don't know. Well, they do have conjugal visits sometimes. And sometimes people get around those guards and anyway. And is she still married at the show? She's married to Lumumba. Then when she did get out and go to trial, she was acquitted, and a month later she has Tupac.

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Okay.

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And then, like I said before, when he was roughly a year old, is when his mother decided to change his name to Tupac Shakur. Okay. She and Lumumba's marriage disintegrated when he discovered that he was actually not Tupac's biological father. Oh yeah. His real father was a man named Billy Garland. And Billy really never had anything to do with Tupac.

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Okay.

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So Fanny went on to remarry, and she married a man named Mutulu Shakur.

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Okay.

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Who was Lumumba's adopted brother? And she had a daughter with him. But that marriage also ended in divorce. And soon after that, she moved her family to Baltimore. Mutula, her that the man that she had the daughter with, he actually would spend four years on the FBI's Most Wanted list. Wow. He had robbed a Brinks truck and it had ended in someone getting killed, and he had all kinds of charges against him.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Only four years then.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

Well, that was four years on the most wanted list. Okay, I gotcha. Yeah. He had quite a lot of stuff against him. Right. So Tupac attended Baltimore School of the Arts when he was in the tenth grade. And he act while he was there, he studied jazz, poetry, literature, and ballet. And that's actually where he met and became lifelong friends with Jada Pinkett. Yeah. Who we all know is Will Smith's wife. Also, while he was there, he started dating the daughter of this local communism chapter. He started dating this the guide's daughter. And so he kind of started dabbling in communism himself.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Really? Mm-hmm. How much of a relationship was there with Jada Pinkett?

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Well, he he he did really like her. I think they did have a thing for a little while. If I'm not mistaken, he might have asked her to marry him at one point.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Okay. Have you ever heard that? I heard that like it was like if we both haven't got been married, you know, in so many years, then we'll get married.

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But I always wondered if she exaggerated their relationship or if and according to everything I read, he really like and they were close and they remained close until he died. Okay. Also, Jasmine Guy. Yes. You know what I'm talking about? She went on not in Living Color, a Different World. Yep. She was Whitney. I love her. Yes, me too. Her southern accent. He was very close to her as well. Really? So she went to school there as well. She went to school there with both of them, yes. But a few years later, in 1988, a Fini would move the kids once again, and this time to Marin County, California, near San Francisco. And it was there that Tupac attended high school, and that was just a regular high school. Okay. Until he dropped out. And he would later go on to get his GED. Okay. During some of Tupac's teen years, his mother actually was struggled with a crack addiction. So as you can imagine, she wasn't really providing very well for her children during that time. So Tupac turned to selling drugs in order basically to take care of himself. And honestly, it's probably the only life he knew at that point. Right. When you grow up, you know, in the in the neighborhood and on the streets and your mom's addicted. Right. There's, you know. There was this performing arts teacher named Leela Steinberg who saw potential in Tupac. When he was just 17, he took this performing arts course from her, and she kind of became like this mentor to him. She would let him crash at her place when he needed somewhere to go. And she ended up becoming his first manager. And really? Yes, and really helped shape his career. Yeah. You know, the famous rabbit ears bandana look he always sported. Well, she kind of encouraged that. Like, you need to keep wearing that. That's you. That's your look. Stick with that. Wow. And then she managed to get him signed with the same agent who managed Digital Underground. Do you know them? The Humpty Dance? Oh my gosh, yes. Yes. I know I loved that song. Me too. Me and my best friend, we would sing like every word, as explicit as those lyrics were. Yeah. I would probably still remember every one of them today. Yeah. You probably know this then that he was in some of their videos and then rapped on some of their albums with them.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

I don't I know. I don't because I was still pretty young. I know you were, but I still remember Pumpty.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

That's great. Anyway, yeah, he was. He was a backup dancer on that video. And then and then rapped on some of their albums. So that's kind of where he really started breaking into this business.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

That is so cool.

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I know it's like reliving some of my teenage years.

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Seriously.

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So Tupac, as we know, would go on to record his own music, debuting his first album, Tupacalypse Now, in November of 1991. That album explored socioonomic issues of race, poverty, and police brutality, and it was quite controversial. But he already had a pretty large following by then, and that album actually went on to become certified gold.

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Wow.

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Yeah. He simultaneously began acting while he was growing his music career. He starred in Juice in 1992. And he was in Poetic Justice with Janet Jackson.

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Yes.

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And then he was in Above the Rim.

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Okay.

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I know I will fully admit I listened to a lot of that music, but I've never seen any of those movies.

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You haven't? Never. Oh gosh, I've seen all of them. Have you? Yeah.

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Well, my goal this weekend is to watch Poetic Justice. Yes. So because I love Janet Jackson too. Well, you know that success has a way of changing things. Sure. Money, fame, and influence can open doors that most people only dream about. And they also bring new temptations and higher stakes. Fame has this way of amplifying everything. The good decisions, the bad decisions, and every weakness in between. For Tupac, the image of living the thug life wasn't just music anymore. Whether it was a philosophy or a persona or just a reflection of the world he came from, it had become inseparable from his public identity. And before long, the headlines weren't just about platinum records. They were about arrest, courtrooms, and a young man whose life was becoming increasingly tangled in violence and controversy. Early on, Tupac, he got involved in a shootout at a Marin County festival where he had just performed. And a stray bullet from his gun ended up killing a six-year-old child who was playing nearby. Oh my gosh. Now he was not the one that shot the gun. It was like the gun got dropped and he said, get it off the floor, and then his friend picked it up, and there was a some shooting that happened, but the kid was just playing nearby and the bullet was a stray bullet and it hit and killed him.

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Oh my gosh.

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And ultimately, criminal charges were not filed in that case, but a civil suit was, and it ended up being settled out of court for an undisclosed amount. And then in 1993, he was charged with shooting at two off-duty police officers after he was intervening in a situation he saw happening with a black motorist. He felt like the cops were harassing him and he kind of got in the middle of it. He ended up shooting at them. But those charges were later dropped against him when it was determined that the officers were one, we already know that we're not on duty, they were intoxicated, they were carrying stolen weapons. Oh my gracious. And had lied on their witness statements. Wow. Now LAPD has a long history of having dirty cops, and I mean that goes back to even in some of our old episodes from the 30s and 40s. Right. And I don't think things had changed a bit, and who knows if they have now. Right. But it was definitely an issue in the 80s and early 90s. While Tupac isn't responsible for the term thug, he definitely identified as one, coining the term thug life in his music lyrics and other writings. And it became this sort of philosophy of his, you know, this gangster lifestyle. And that's not me putting words into his mouth. I mean, he famously had thug life tattooed right there across his midsection. And that he did that in 1992. And when he showed that tattoo to his friend and mentor, Watani, Watani was like, What's that supposed to mean? And he was like, What do you mean? He's like, Well, you got this tattoo. There gotta, there has to be a meaning behind it. Right. So Tupac came up with he liked acronyms. He came up with an acronym for it right then and there. So the acronym stands for in Thug Life the hate you give little infants F everybody. Oh, okay. Which I found really interesting. And the U is spelled with a capital U, not spelled out the word. So thug life.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

I feel like it's reaching a little bit, but whatever.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Yeah.

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Around this time, Tupac began hanging around with this guy named Haitian Jack. Or that was his moniker. And I mean, he was a really bad guy, even in the gangster life. He was kind of like trouble with a capital T. And people warned Tupac about dealing with him. Right. But their budding friendship continued, and it didn't take long for the negative influence to lead to some real problems for Tupac. In November of 93, Tupac, along with Haitian Jack and two other men, were accused of gang raping a woman named Ayana Jackson in Tupac's hotel room at the Parker Meridian Hotel. Ayana claimed that while she was there to see Tupac, that he brought three friends in and they forcibly raped and sodomized her. Oh my gosh. She did call the police and report it. She didn't wait. Now, Tupac steadfastly denied those allegations. He insisted he had never forced himself on a woman, and he argued that the accusations were completely at odds with the values he expressed in his music. He often pointed to songs like Keep Your Head Up, in which he urged listeners to respect women and Dear Mama that you referenced earlier, his heartfelt tribute to the woman who raised him. I watched one interview where he questioned why would anybody believe he could write lyrics honoring women while secretly living the opposite way? To him, the charges didn't just threaten his freedom, they challenged the character that he had spent years putting into his music. Okay. But regardless of his denials, the case would alter the course of Tupac's life. By the mid-90s, Tupac Shakur's life had become a study in contrast. His talent, like we said, was undeniable. His fame was soaring. Yet legal troubles and controversy were beginning to cast a shadow over his success. While Tupac was navigating the consequences of his choices, another young rapper was quietly building a career nearly 3,000 miles away. And before long, their lives and ultimately their legacies would become forever linked. And his name was Christopher Wallace. Christopher Wallace was born in 1972 to Jamaican immigrant parents living in Brooklyn, New York. His father actually was a politician in Jamaica, but he came to the U.S. to be and became a welder. His mother, Valletta, was a preschool teacher. And his parents were also not rich. So were they like middle class or not even? No, they weren't even middle class. Okay. They were hardworking immigrants, though, I'll tell you that. When Christopher was just three years old, his father left, and then Christopher, an only child, would be raised by a single mother.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Okay.

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And so you know the struggles as a single mother. And his mother worked two jobs, so she could afford to send him to better schools. Wow. So she just wanted, even though they weren't in the best of neighborhoods, she wanted to give him a little bit of a better life and every opportunity not to get stuck there. Right. He was the apple of his mother's eye, by all accounts, very close to his mother. She even spoiled him a little bit. Right. So even though they weren't really considered middle class, he was the kid in the neighborhood. Somebody said that, like, you know, he's gonna have the newest Nintendo game, so we're all going to his house to play it. Gotcha. That. Yeah. Yeah. He was always a big boy, and that garnered him the nickname Big when he was in school. He was good in school, especially just like Tupac. He was good in his English classes. Right. But his mom, even though she tried to protect him from his neighborhood influences, just his proximity to the streets and a lack of supervision because his mom was working quite a bit, led to his interest in selling drugs. And at around age 12, a friend introduced him to buying and selling marijuana. And that was what his mother was trying to protect him from. But this proved to be a lucrative deal for him. He was making some money. Right. And that led him to selling heavier drugs. And then by age 16, he had dropped out of school. And then naturally those life choices lead to him getting in some trouble. And then he ends up getting arrested, spending some time in jail for various things. But when he was released, he made a demo tape. And he originally chose the stage name Biggie Smalls. But then it was determined that the name was already in use. So he changed his name, as we all know now, to the notorious B.I.G.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Yes.

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Do you remember what B I G stood for? I don't. Business instead of game. Okay. So he apparently liked the acronyms too. Yes. This was the early 90s. I was I was already married and everything, so I wasn't listening to as much rap music at that point. But I do remember I worked with a guy named Chris Wallace.

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Okay.

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So shout out Chris if you're listening. So I remember when all this kind of started becoming, you know, popular. That was like on my radar because of that.

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Okay. I was about 13.

unknown 21:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

What year were you born? 78. Okay. You are the exact same age as my sister Quinn. Okay. And she loved actually, I know I I texted her the other day. I'm like, okay, in the Tupac Biggie thing, were you on one side or the other, or were you neutral? And I kind of knew what her answer would be because I remember her, but she messaged back, Tupac all the way, baby. So you're the exact same age as her. And that was really like teenagers, that was really the height of their fame. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Oh yeah.

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Because I had already kind of passed on. I grew up with like Run DM C and LL Cool J. And yeah.

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So I was an alternative girl. I can't I can't even imagine that.

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But I still like Tupac for like love Tupac still. Yeah. I think everybody at that age, because again, he got really popular. Oh, he did. And we'll talk about that too, about that music scene at that time. Oh, and then Biggie ended up, he did have a daughter with his girlfriend Jan Jackson in August of 93. But later he would go on to marry RB singer Faith Evans. Yes. Yeah. They got married in August of 94, eight days after they met.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

I did not remember that. I just remember all the big talk about her and Tupac and her.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

We're gonna get into that, yeah. But let's go back, let's just stay in 1993 for a minute. Okay. So it was 1993 when budding artist Biggie asked a local drug dealer to introduce him to Shaw. The two became friends quickly. Tupac and Biggie, they would hang out. When big when Biggie came to LA, you know, he'd go stay with Tupac. When Tupac visited New York, they're hanging out, and they just really respected each other's music. At times during some of his shows, Tupac would call Biggie up on stage to perform with him. Wow. Some said that Biggie's style was influenced by Tupac a lot. And then I don't know if you knew that I didn't know this, but Biggie actually asked Tupac to be his manager. Oh, I did not know that. And Tupac deferred and told him that Sean Combs would make him a star. Wow. And he did. And he did, yeah. Yeah. So at this time, West Coast hip hop was dominating the charts. But when Biggie's album, Ready to Die, was released, it sold 500,000 copies the first week, and it was certified four times platinum.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

And that essentially shifted the attention back to the East Coast hip. Right. And actually the East Coast considered itself the real home to hip hop, the beginnings, anyway. And like I said, Big and Tupac, they had they had this friendship. They admired one another and they inspired one another. Before the decade was over, they would become the faces of one of the most infamous rivalries in music, fueled by ambition, suspicion, loyalty, media hype, powerful record executives, and the people who stood behind them. Two one-time friends found themselves on opposite sides of a growing conflict that the world would come to know as the East Coast versus West Coast hip-hop feud. But beneath the surface, the battle was less about the geography and more about these two powerful record labels, Death Row Records, and they represented the West Coast and Bad Boy Records on the East Coast. And as that rivalry intensified, the alliances formed by Tupac and Big E would create an even deeper divide. Tupac had aligned himself with Death Row's controversial founder, Sug Knight, while Biggie remained closely connected to Bad Boy Records and its founder, Sean Puffy Combs. I'm always going to think of him as Puffy. Right. Or even Puff Daddy. I mean, he's changed his name what, like a dozen times. It was Puff Daddy, that's what we that's a whole nother story. And that whole that's a whole nother episode. Oh, yeah, that's definitely a whole. I'll probably just refer to him at this from this point on as Sean Combs. And everybody knows who I'm talking about. Yes. And what began as a competition between artists and labels would soon be a become a personal conflict that would permanently damage the relationship between two of hip-hop's greatest stars. And to make matters more complicated, this rivalry was also steeped in actual gangster conflict. Suge Knight was a famous mob Piru Blood, not an ex-member, but a current one, while simultaneously running Death Row Records. And then Bad Boy Records turned to the Southside Crips for security. So you have street level violence and gang politics that are intertwined with this music industry dispute. Right. Which brings us to November 30th, 1994. You probably remember, I mean, the news coverage like every night. Yeah. So Tupac arrived at Quad Studios in New York to record that day. As he and his crew entered the building, he was ambushed by three armed men, forced to the ground, robbed, beaten, and shot five times. And then as he was wheeled out on the gurney, he gave the middle finger. I mean, that that image, you remember it was all over the news. People assumed it was directed at the news and the paparazzi. But in reality, it was aimed at Sean Puppycombs and the notorious BIG who were watching from an upstairs window. When Tupac realized they were in the building, he believed he had been set up by those two men and that he that they are the ones who got him shot. And he vowed at that point he was gonna get even.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Right.

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Now Biggie denied having anything to do with it. He called those accusations crazy and ridiculous. He claimed that he was in a deep recording session when all that occurred and that he had rushed down to see Tupac bloodied and he was concerned. Right. But Tupac wasn't having it, and he wasn't believing it. Just the next day, less than 24 hours later, on December 1st, 1994, Tupac checked himself out of the hospital against medical advice and arrived at court to hear the verdict on his rape charges. And he was found guilty on three charges of sexual abuse, but he was acquitted of the rape charges. Two months later, February 14, 1995, Tupac was sentenced to between one and a half to four and a half years in prison, and he was sent to the Clinton Correctional Facility. One week later, Biggie released a song titled Who Shot You? Tupac was convinced that that was a diss track in which Biggie was taking credit for that shooting of him. And again, Biggie denied it. He said, No, that song had been written months before the incident. And I was not trying to mock Tupac. Right. But Tupac was like, I he refused to believe it. What do you think? Um I in the I will say this. In the interview that I watched where Biggie was saying that, he looked sincere. Okay. I I trust Biggie. I don't trust Sean Combs. Yeah. But I mean I do have the benefit of time. Yes. So yeah. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 28:40

I don't know. It's interesting. Because they do that, they do that still to this day. There's this kid, I cannot think of his name, that he is in prison right now, and he wrote this the song about murder. I'll have to play it to you. It's the creepiest song. But he is in there for the murder of his of his either his cousin or his best friend. And I mean he says the same thing. No, I didn't do that. That's not what this is about. But it definitely sounds like it is. I'll have to play you that song.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

Okay. Okay. Now yeah, now I'm interested. I want to hear that. Well, adding fuel to the fire at the August 1995 Source Awards in Manhattan, shouldn't, while accepting an award, publicly insulted Sean Combs. On the stage, he invited any rapper who didn't want to deal with their producer interfering with their creative work to come to Death Row Records. And that was a direct shot at Combs, who was well known for appearing in the songs and videos of his talent and kind of constantly making these like shameless cameos at every chance he could. When Suge Knight said that the New York crowd erupted into heavy booing. I mean, it drew a literal battle line between the two powerhouse labels because that was a public insult. Yeah. And he wasn't even on his turf. Right. But visibly irritated by the hostility, Snoop Dogg took the stage. I love Snoop Dogg. He took the stage and he confronted the audience. He said, The East Coast don't love Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg. The East Coast ain't got no love for Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg and Death Row. Y'all don't love us? Let it be known then.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Oh wow. Can you just hear him say that? And what and what happened?

SPEAKER_02 30:32

There was just a lot of contention in the crowd and you know, just a lot of division. And I think there were some scuffles afterwards out on the sidewalk. It was just a it was heating up. So now this previous simmering um behind the scenes East versus West feud had now been made very public. Then in October of that year, Suge Knight posted the $1.4 million bond for Tupac, getting him released from prison. Tupac had served eight months of his sentence, and this was an appeal bond in which he could bond out while awaiting the appeals process for his sentence. So essentially, Tupac was now indebted to Suge Knight at this point. Right. And in return, he agreed to sign with Death Row Records for a multi-album deal. I believe it was for three albums at least. Okay. He immediately flew to LA and began work on that. And within months, he released his return diss track, All Eyes on Me. And in that on that album, multiple times, he disses Biggie and Bad Boy Records, calls him out by name. Yeah. That album went double platinum. And Biggie was still continuing to lay down his own tracks. In fact, by the end of 95, the notorious B.I.G. had become the top-selling solo male artist and rapper on U.S. pop and RB charts. He also earned Rap Artist of the Year at the Billboard Awards that year. These guys were in their prime, two of the best hip-hop artists at the time, both very successful in their own right. But Tupac, still miffed at Biggie, hired Biggie's now estranged wife, Faith Evans, to be on the track of his next album. So the story goes, Tupac offered Faith $25,000 to be on his album, and she agreed to it. And after she completed her part of that, he invited her back to his hotel room under the guise that, well, the money to pay you is there. And so she went with him to his room to get her money. They both agree that he propositioned her. But that's where their stories take a vastly different turn. He claimed that they had sex. She denied that. In fact, she has always emphatically denied that to this day. But Tupac started that story as another way to kind of get under Biggie's skin. I mean, that's bound to get under your skin. Oh yeah. And now that tension between them is just like there's no turning back from it. Right. There's no going back. By June 1996, the relationship between Tupac and Biggie had reached a breaking point. The friendship that had once connected these two bright stars had been replaced by suspicion, resentment, and public attacks. What started as a disagreement between two artists had grown into a battle of loyalty, reputation, and pride. Death Row released Tupac's ultimate diss track titled Hit Em Up. In it, Tupac made the public assertion that he had slept with Biggie's ex-wife. Oh gosh. And that was widely considered to be one of the most ferocious diss tracks ever recorded. Three months after it was released, Tupac and Biggie both attended the MTV Video Music Awards in New York. While they did not directly clash that night, their entourages were involved in like a little brush up. I remember that. Do you? Yes. It did end in police intervention. Yeah. And it did make the news. Three days after that incident, on September 7th, 1996, Tupac and Suge Knight attended the Mike Tyson fight at the MGM in Vegas. At that event, video coverage shows Suge Knight and Tupac attacking Orlando Baby Lane Anderson, a Southside Compton Crip member. It was supposedly in retaliation for a supposed theft months earlier. And that was actually a parole violation for Suge. So he ended up going to prison for nine years. Oh, okay. People said that Suge's influence brought out the worst in Tupac.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Yeah, I believe that. I've heard a lot of interviews about Suge, and it was pretty. I mean, I think he was a pretty bad guy.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Yeah, wait till you hear what I tell you at the end. Okay. Less than three hours later, as Suge Knight drove down the Vegas strip, a white Cadillac pulled alongside his car at a red light, a gunman opened fire, hitting Suge and striking Tupac four times in the chest, arm, and thigh. Six days later, on September 13th, 1996, Tupac Shakur succumbed to his injuries from that shooting, passing away at the age of 25. Gosh, he was so young. Had so much life ahead of him.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

I remember like where I was at when I heard the news of that. Yeah. So I was at Job Corps in North Carolina. And there were these two girls, Peaches and Pumpkins. And they loved, like every morning, it was so annoying because you know, we woke up really early. And so at five o'clock in the morning, they were blasting Tupac. Like they they genuinely loved him. So when they found out that he died, oh my gosh, I just remember them bawling and crying. And oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Yeah, because it was all over the new radio. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Absolutely. And so yeah, I just remember. And of course, we were all really sad and shocked, but I it hit those two really hard. Yeah. And they pumpkin and who? Pumpkin and peaches. And peaches. Yeah, they were cousins.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

Maybe they'll hear this.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

They're from Mississippi.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

Naturally, Biggie and Sean Combs were seen as the culprits. And of course, they denied having anything to do with the shooting death of Tupac. Biggie was upset and reportedly in tears when he heard the news of his former friend's death. And even subsequent interviews, you'll see him talking about it. He he really did genuinely, genuinely seem upset. Right. One result of Tupac's death was massive gang warfare on the streets of Compton between the bloods and the crypts. Just after those his murder, there were over 20 shooting deaths on the streets of Compton in just a 10-day period. And then exactly six months after Tupac's death, the notorious B.I.G. was shot and killed on March 9th, 1997. I do remember when I heard about that because I was very pregnant, waiting to have a baby. Yeah, I just remember feeling like, well, I feel like I'm Biggie. I was pregnant too. Were you? With Memphis? Yes. I was pregnant with Bailey. Oh, yes. Okay. She was actually born eight days later.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

Wow. So I wasn't that pregnant, but because she was born in June. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:41

Biggie had traveled to California to shoot a music video for his single Hypnotize. While there, he attended the Soul Train Music Awards and was booed heavily by the West Coast crowd when he took the stage. Yeah. Two nights later, as Biggie and Puffy were leaving a party in separate vehicles, they stopped at a red light. A dark Chevrolet and Pala pulled alongside Biggie's SUV. An African American man, well dressed in a blue suit and bow tie, rolled down his window, pointed a nine millimeter at Biggie, and fired multiple shots into the car. Biggie was hit four times. He was rushed to Cedar Sinai Hospital where emergency surgery was performed, but unfortunately the notorious BIG was pronounced dead at 1 15 AM at the young age of 24.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

It always was surprising to me that Puff Daddy, whatever Sean, caught that he didn't get injured at all. I know. Which adds to some of those conspiracies. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

Yeah. Two weeks after his murder, his album, ironically titled Life After Death, was released worldwide. It would become one of the best-selling rap albums of all time. I'm sure boosted by you know his recent death. It sold over 10 million copies and was certified diamond status.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

And I wonder, like, who who got all that money, like if he did benefit from that.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

I don't know if the record label would get it or his estate would get it. I would think Biggie's estate. And he actually, even though he and Faith Evans were estranged, they do have a son together. Sure. His son was born just five months before this. So she had a five-month-old baby. And even though they were estranged, they were married until his death. So hopefully Faith and the son got his estate and most of that. But I would think that Sean Combs would have gotten a lot of royalties off that album. That's what I was thinking too. Okay. At the funeral procession through his old neighborhood, the streets were full. When that when that procession came through with his with that car carrying his casket, people were all out in the street. Someone put on hypnotize, and the crowds in the streets went wild. People were dancing, they were marching along beside the car, they were hanging out the windows of their apartment buildings, jumping up and down, cheering. I mean, it was something else. I watched a little clip of it on YouTube and it was like, wow. Many people viewed his death as the tragic climax of the East Coast-West Coast rap rivalry. Tupac released or his label released nine of his albums posthumously, and seven of those went platinum. Neither of their murders has yet resulted in a conviction for the person responsible.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

For almost 30 years, the investigation into Tupac's death has been hampered by a code of silence on the streets, fear of gang retaliation, and a lack of trust and cooperation with the LAPD. Biggie's murder investigation was marred by conflicting information and alleged police corruption.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

And the person suspected of being the gunman in his murder actually shortly died afterward of a murder as well. So even if he was the one responsible, you couldn't arrest him. And now, like you said before, there are a few different conspiracy theories of who's responsible for each of the killings. So we'll just go through them. Okay. So the mainstream thought in Tupac's murder, and the legal theory on that one, is that in response to the attack on Orlando Anderson by Tupac and Suge, that Anderson's uncle, Dwayne Keith D. Davis, orchestrated a hit. Another theory in Tupac's death is that his buddy Suge Knight was behind it. Have you heard that theory? Yes. Supposedly Tupac was looking to leave Death Row and Suge owed him millions in unpaid royalties. Some people believe that Suge set up the killing of Tupac so he could conveniently frame rival gang members for that death.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Right. And it's not implausible. No, I was gonna say that, yeah, not at all.

SPEAKER_02 41:53

And then, of course, there's the theory that Sean Combs and Biggie paid for the hit on Tupac.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Right, which was at the time the most popular theory.

SPEAKER_02 42:01

And then it lost steam. But I think back when Sean Combs recently, I think in just 24, when he was arrested and he's got all his legal troubles, I think that theory might have kind of resurrected a little bit. Sure. Because he lost a lot of public trust. Yes. Before I go into the theories in Biggie's death, do you want to talk about like which one of those do you believe?

SPEAKER_01 42:22

I don't know which one I believe, but the one that I heard the most was that Sean Combs and Faith together had something to do with, you know, had him killed. Interesting. So that they could, you know, benefit financially from his yeah, from his death. Do you believe that about her? I don't know. I mean I've I've listened to interviews with her, but unfortunately, I heard so I've heard so much negative talk, you know, about her that I feel like it's it's just hard. It because because all those rumors do plant seeds, whether you want them to or not. And so I don't have like probably the best, or she doesn't get a fit, she doesn't have like a fair shake because the media.

SPEAKER_02 43:09

Yeah. And you got and the media really they benefited from that beast. Yes, absolutely. You know, they really did. They they had all these stories they could run, and it was they fed it a lot. Right. All right, so the theories in Biggie's death. Naturally, people assume that Suge Knight was responsible for Biggie's murder as retaliation for Tupac's death. It was clear that it was a contract hit, but who ordered the hit was questionable. The leading police theory in Biggie's death was this. Suge's girlfriend and her pseudonym is Teresa Swan, but that's just the name that the LAPD gave her. She confessed that she had played a part in smuggling $25,000 and orders for the hit from Suge while he was incarcerated. However, the man that she claimed she paid to do the job was himself murdered in 2003. Right. So no charges were filed. So that's one theory. Then there's this LAPD police officer, an ex-police officer named Russell Poole, and he alleges that the LAPD was involved in the cover-up to kill Biggie. Really? He insists that that they have known all along who did it, that the hitman, the guy that was in the blue suit and the bow tie, his name was Harry Bills, aka Amir Muhammad. They said he was known to officers very well, and he believes Bill Ups was like on the payroll of the LAPD, and it was all a big setup from them. But why? Yeah, I don't I don't know why. He he went into this whole big whole government conspiracy thing.

SPEAKER_03 44:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

There have been, and if you if you wanted to look further, there have been books and documentaries about that theory, but and it was compelling. But ultimately, like their key informant known as Psycho Micah, he was discredited. If you can imagine that, and and no charges were brought.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

We're never gonna know really who ordered the hit on Biggie. So until now, they neither one of them have had justice.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

But in September of 2023, Dwayne Keith D. Davis was arrested and charged with the murder of Tupac. He was the bodyguard who had words with Tupac earlier that week that led up to the shooting. He was a high-ranking Cripps member, and he was Orlando Anderson's uncle. And you know, Tupac had assaulted that guy at the uh casino. And they said he didn't actually pull the trigger, but he was the shot caller. They said he organized the shooting and provided the weapon. And there's like this in Las Vegas, there was this law that, you know, if you if you you can be charged with murder even if you didn't actually pull the control. And the interesting thing about that is that his trial will begin next month. Oh on August 10th, 2026, in Clark County District Court in Las Vegas.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

So we could see a conviction in the death of Tupac. I would love that.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

I mean, I really hope so.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

I'm gonna follow that and we will keep you guys updated as that one unfolds. Too bad we can't go sit in that trial. Oh my gosh, that would be amazing. You reckon we could get some time off work and got it, right? Okay, I've got some more little tidbits I'm gonna throw out there to you. Okay. So so one very interesting little tidbit is Suge Knight, he's still in prison. He has a podcast from jail.

SPEAKER_01 46:41

Yes. I've loved it. I have two.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

Yes. I listened to it yesterday in you know, preparing for this called Collect Call with Sug Knight, which is named pretty well, I guess. How crazy is that, right?

SPEAKER_01 46:54

You can be in prison and have a podcast. I mean, but is he I doubt he's supposed to. Well, he's getting away with them. And you know he's got more listeners than us. But you know, I I listened to the Christlies and Todd Christlies said that he had so many of the you know the staff in his pocket, and they were paid to hide his phones and wow, yeah. And you know, if you got Suge Knight in there, there's probably a lot of people doing his bidding, especially, you know, because of him with the gang influence and all that.

SPEAKER_02 47:27

And his son is the one that's kind of like, I guess, producing it.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

Right. Isn't that crazy?

SPEAKER_02 47:32

That's crazy. So I was a little jealous, yeah. So here's the other little interesting tidbit. Remember, I told you that Tupac's mother was from Lumberton, North Carolina. Yeah. That's about two hours from here.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

I have no idea.

SPEAKER_02 47:45

We always go by there on the way to the beach. Okay. Tupac's ashes. His mother was gonna spread them over the Pacific Ocean. Some of them she did, but then so I don't remember what happened. I think some of them, when she started to spread them, they blew back on her, and she took that as a sign that Tupac didn't want to go into the Pacific Ocean. Oh wow. So she kept his ashes. Now there is one rumor that some of the one the guys in his group, the outlaws, actually smoked some of his ashes at the memorial. Have you heard that one?

SPEAKER_01 48:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

But the bulk of his ashes, his mother brought back here to Lumberton, North Carolina and buried on her property, her 56-acre estate in Lumberton.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

So Tupac's ashes and remains are right here. And I want to go on a field trip to see it.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Oh my gosh, I would love that.

SPEAKER_02 48:35

We would have to trespass. Yes. I asked my sister. We might get shot. Yeah. I asked my sister Quinn. I'm like, you got any of that thug life left in you? Right. Like we could go trespass, go on a little field trip.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

Oh my gosh. That's so cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

So what did my brother have to say? He said he thinks that about 95% of hip hop is fake. So he he sent me this video of Tupac way when he was younger, way back at the beginning. And uh he said he always found it interesting because on that video, he's it's just this young guy. He's very innocent, very sweet and nice. And people do say he was a very nice guy. And yet you see these videos, and he's, you know, talking about the guns and the drugs and all the things. And Jay said he knows that one of the biggest shocks was seeing how the artists were really behind the camera and different than when the camera was running. Right. And he said, I feel like 95% of hip hop is fake, but children, you know, they see it from a different perspective. And they idolize these people that are not truly loving what they they're saying themselves. Exactly. And I said to him, So do you think much of it is a persona? And he said, Yes, I do. Yeah. And you know, I wanted to ask him because he's he does some rap himself. Yeah, yeah. We should link some of his we should link your brother's music. Oh, that would be that's a great idea. Let's do that. Yeah, but I know he's doing this ministry with young men, yeah, trying to help them. And I'm like, he probably sees a lot of men who are not or young guys who don't have a father presence. Right. Kind of sees both angles.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

He does. And he was on the road with, you know, rehab and just saw a lot. I mean, he knows a lot of rapper, and so yeah, he always tells me stuff like that too. Like it's it's not, you know, a lot of it's just not real.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

Yeah. What I wondered was the way Tupac grew up, when you're on the streets like that, you probably have to get this persona, this hard edge, because that like if you that's how you're gonna survive, or else you're gonna be the one who gets got, so to speak. Yeah. And so you develop whether that's really who you are or not. It's almost like a survival. Right. And then once once it becomes like this music that you're doing, I'm just so surprised.

SPEAKER_01 50:54

I mean, he was 25 years old. That's unbelievable. That's so young. That's uh that's my son Isaiah's age. Wow. Yeah, yeah, that puts that in perspective. If it's fake, I'm not saying that all of that was fake. I mean, uh, he probably got himself wrapped up into something.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

I believe that.

SPEAKER_02 51:14

I do too, and I believe a lot of them probably do without fathers around. Yeah. And again, just trying to survive. You have to get into it and get into that gang, not just to feel acceptance, although that's an element to it, but to protect yourself. Like you need those those people to protect you because from the outside looking in, it's so stupid to me.

SPEAKER_01 51:38

The whole thing. I'm like, you're losing your life over the stupidest crap. Like, I I cannot tell you how dumb it is. But I know that I'm on the outside looking in, and things are very different when you know, when you're living in a situation, and you just can't always see it very clearly. So I yeah, I mean, I I can't even pretend that I understand that at all because it's crazy to me. It's so foreign, you know. I'm just like, why would you do that? But like you said, I think a lot of young kids get into it just because they don't want to get got, like you said. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:19

Do you think Tupac, do you think he really did rape that girl?

SPEAKER_01 52:27

I mean, he was convicted. Well, no, he wasn't convicted of rape. He was acquitted of rape. He was convicted of sexual. Well, he probably did something then.

SPEAKER_02 52:36

There was probably enough there. He said he was framed that that Haitian Jack guy framed him, and then he took like Haitian Jack, I think, took a deal to oh. So he says I would not disrespect women like that.

SPEAKER_01 52:51

Yeah, and I don't know. I mean, it's possible. It would be interesting to know if she had like a rape kit done, if we knew what the evidence was. Right. I didn't look that deep into it for this, but I agree because I mean I think all the time girls can just say stuff sometimes, and it's taken at just taken at their and I I don't know, I have boys, and I just don't always think that people should be taken at their words because people lie. True, true that. So if there's not physical evidence, then I don't think that and there may have been physical evidence.

SPEAKER_02 53:30

I know a lot of his fans don't want to believe it. Right. But I mean it could be true too. Yeah. But then again, I'm not gonna take it just like you said, just that he said, she said, I heard there was evidence because there's a lot of women out there that do lie.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

Well, like, I mean, I don't I don't know again what evidence, but I mean it came out years and years later. But like the guy from the Danny Masterson guy from that 70 show, I'm like, how do you like how do you know that he did that?

SPEAKER_02 54:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:02

All these years later. I just and if he did do it, I mean, I guess he's where he needs to be, but how do you prove that beyond a reasonable doubt all these years later? Do you see what I'm saying? I see exactly what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 54:15

Oh well, that's that's where I think the me too movement has made such a mess of our courts.

SPEAKER_01 54:21

Oh yeah, and I hear people say all the time, like if a woman says it, you're just supposed to believe it. And I don't believe it because I know too I know personally too many women who have lied about those things.

SPEAKER_02 54:34

Yes, me too.

SPEAKER_01 54:36

I mean, we hope that he didn't, but it was a that was a good story though, because I yeah, there was a lot of that that I didn't know. I didn't realize they were such good friends before.

SPEAKER_02 54:48

Yeah. One documentary I watched said they they grew up as friends, but that wasn't true. They they met after like in the early 90s.

SPEAKER_01 54:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 54:56

So they were young though. Yeah, they were young, and they did they like I said, they had that mutual admiration. Right. Yeah. Oh, that's so sad.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

Gosh, those were some hard times. They sure were.

SPEAKER_02 55:08

Well, that's our story for today. I did want to explain the different intro. That was Darlene's brother, and he's a rapper/slash music artist. He goes by the name Jericho Stone, and we'll have some of his music linked for you in our show notes. We thought it would be fun to have him kick off an episode about Biggie and Tupac. The funny part is, before we settled on that, he had told me he couldn't wait to hear Curtis do the intro. Y'all, I laughed so hard, just imagining Curtis doing some dramatic rap style intro in that southern accent that everybody loves. Then I told my husband Tim about it, and he started doing his impression of Curtis doing the intro. It was even funnier. I wish I could have recorded it because I think y'all would have gotten a kick out of it too. Maybe one day we'll talk Curtis into giving us his own version. Until then, thanks so much for listening. Take care, and we'll catch you on the next episode.